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LOVE SAFETY
NET
Transcript
of July 20, 2009, program
“Take The Pressure Off”
STEVE:
Hi everyone. Welcome to The Love Safety Net.
KIM: I’m
Kim.
STEVE:
And I’m Steve. This week’s show is somewhat of a continuation
from last week’s, where we started talking about what recovery
might look like for a narcissist. The show this week is called,
“Take the Pressure Off”.
KIM: If
you haven’t tuned into our show before, we speak primarily to
the partners of people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or
with some of the symptoms of narcissism. If you are not
familiar with this disorder, the best place for you to probably
start would be at
www.narcissismhelp.com,
which is one of our sites. It answers a lot of questions and
gives a lot of information about narcissism and about this
disorder. But in the show today, what we really hope to achieve
is provide a bit of a better understanding of what is going on
inside your narcissist partner’s mind, because we really feel
that with that understanding it is obviously going to make it
easier for you to help and easier for you to understand what
needs to be done.
I mean,
you probably really need to know that they don’t feel safe.
You might want to get into that more a bit today, Steve, if you
can illuminate on that from being there yourself. We really
hope the information we are providing here will help you to help
your partner feel safer.
STEVE:
Absolutely. And I think we do need to set this up. From my
perspective, the problem is a narcissist doesn’t really feel
safe, and they probably never have, whether it’s a he or
she. From my perspective anyway, I really never felt safe in a
relationship—with family, girlfriends, close people around me.
Looking back on it, I can see that I really did give up a long
time ago on having an honest relationship with anyone.
KIM:
Hmm. Well that’s what it looked like to me, Steve, and it took
a long time for that to really dawn on me. I would just be so
angry at you for the things you were doing and the lies you were
telling. I would just think how could you be so cruel…how can
you be doing this…how can you just give up on us so easily to
where you would be doing all this stuff behind my back and it
really felt like you had given up on me. And it took a long
time, I think for it to sink in, but it was really what you just
said that you had really given up on love in general—and on
being able to trust anyone—long before you met me.
STEVE:
And it wasn’t like I just quietly went off into the corner,
giving up on love. I mean, I still wanted to have a good
relationship with you, Kim, but the problem was I was behaving
badly. Because of that fear I had and because I had given up on
really building any kind of honest and real relationship with
anyone, I did have to start building some kind of different ways
of acting and behaving that were trying to protect that fear or
protect that gap that I had. So it was lies, it was abuse…
KIM: So
you were expecting betrayal?
STEVE:
Yes, I think I really was. I had witnessed a lot of betrayal
occur within my own family growing up.
KIM: I
was going to say that, but I don’t want to play psychiatrist,
because that’s not the thing to do. But do you think that lack
of trust started perhaps when your parents broke up when you
were 8?
STEVE:
Sure, I think so. And also there were a lot of other things
apart from just my parents breaking up. Kim, we shouldn’t go
into this now… (laughing)
KIM:
(laughing)
STEVE:
But there was a lot of other things. I remember a lot of
entertainment, you know like movies that I saw and that betrayal
was a really big theme. It was almost like movies were
normalizing or excusing betrayal as sort of normal thing and
something to expect in life. I think I really got to the point
where I didn’t really have any hope for an honest relationship.
Because I had given up on that so much, I probably attracted you
into my life, Kim, because you are really an honest person,
wanting an honest relationship.
KIM:
Thank you.
STEVE:
Really wanting to have a good and open and positive kind of
relationship and have a nice family. So I probably attracted
you in. But because I didn’t know how to deal with all the
sudden—
KIM: You
were still expecting me to betray you.
STEVE:
Exactly!
KIM: And
that really hurt because I took it personally for a really
long time. I took it personally for years. I would
think; “why can’t he trust me?”. I have never even looked
at another guy since I met you, you know.
STEVE:
Sure. And it wasn’t really your fault at all.
KIM: No.
But it took me a long time to realize it, this lack of trust in
other people and that you had given up on having an honest
relationship was something that actually happened a long, long
time before you met me.
STEVE:
That’s right. But importantly I think we need to say here is
that it was normal for you to blame yourself, too, in a way,
wasn’t it? I mean, for you to go “well it must be me” wasn’t
necessarily the wrong thing for you to think at the time.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
Because we all try and reflect what we are doing and I think a
lot of people that are in that situation where they are blaming
themselves, they are looking at themselves saying, “It must be
me—I must be the problem”. Of course that is the right
question, but there are other questions too and we are going to
get into them.
KIM:
Well, we talked a lot about unrealistic expectations in our
radio shows in the past—the old radio shows before we were on
Global Talk Radio. I think that still needs to be discussed
here, but maybe we will bring that forward in a little different
light than we have in the past.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
Because I really think this is so vital for people that are
dealing with this in their relationship—and if they hope to have
recovery from this—is that the partner or someone with
narcissism or Narcissistic Personality Disorder really needs to
give up on the idea that it’s the charming side of their partner
that is going to just be there 100% of the time and the bad
behavior is just going to go away. I think that is the really
obvious thing to look for—and it’s again understandable that
people are looking for this—but that is extremely unrealistic
and it’s just not going to happen because the charming side and
the perfect side and the side your partner plays to the rest of
the world and that you want so dearly for them to play out for
you as well—is an act. And that’s the whole point. They
can’t maintain this act all the time. They can’t maintain this
act especially when they are at home and they are trying to
relax, because the act is actually exhausting.
STEVE:
Absolutely (laughing).
KIM: And
I would see that with you once I started to understand this
better. You had so many plates spinning with so many people.
And, you know, you were lying to a lot of these people and that
takes an enormous amount of effort and energy so by the time you
got home to us—once I started understanding that—it became
easier for me to not take it so personally. That you were just
venting on us and being somebody completely different. Because
when you got home your whole act would just fall down and you
were just exhausted. But I think this giving up on the Prince
Charming or giving up on the idea that it’s the perfect spouse
that is just going to be there all the time as they get better
is extremely important for couples who hope to get past
this. I mean, I had to come to the understanding really that
emotionally you were pretty arrested in your development, you
were still a child. You were not going to be able to help with
me some of my negative emotions as I had expected and wanted you
to because you didn’t even know how to deal with your own
negative emotions.
STEVE:
That’s for sure.
KIM: And
really you were very, very vulnerable when the whole game came
down.
STEVE:
That is really a very good way of putting it, Kim. And I think
it’s really, really important to underline here the Prince
Charming act is very much an act, like you say, Kim. And it is
unsustainable. You are right to say that. But it is so
wonderful. It’s so addictive and it’s wonderful. You want that
person to really come along and rescue you. And like we have
talked about in previous shows, that’s how it happened in the
fairytales, so of course that’s how it’s supposed to happen
now.
KIM: Yes.
STEVE:
And that’s okay if you may have thought that, but we are just
here to drag you back into reality. But not to drag you back
into reality to hurt you but to take the pressure off. Because
what we really are trying to say, like you said in the
beginning, Kim, it’s understanding that is going to help you get
through this. Because we are looking at a situation that is
unworkable, where the narcissistic person is putting on a façade
elsewhere and being nasty at home. It’s really not easy to
tackle and like we have said in previous shows and in our
material it is not going to work if you nag.
Coming in
from a level of understanding—which we hope this program is
going to help you get to today. We are not saying you
have to ignore bad behavior. We are not saying you have to come
in and just be “sucky” with this person.
KIM: No.
We actually have a zero tolerance for abuse and bad behavior
policy.
STEVE:
This is going to take you really stepping up to the plate and
becoming more aware, having eyes in the back of your head and
really learning some new skills. But it’s worth it because it
does actually bring truth. It brings a lot of truth into your
relationship. And that is what we are trying to get across to
everyone that is listening today. When this person is being so
narcissistic and so nasty to you, it is just because he or she
isn’t really in a good position to know how to deal with a
truthful, honest relationship because he or she has never had
that experience before.
KIM: And
they are expecting betrayal. And also just really highlighting
that thing about the recovery and that Prince Charming isn’t
going to save you. I just thought of this before our show,
Steve, so I came in with it. I really think that was where my
thinking had to turn around completely is when I realized I was
going to have to save you—that you weren’t going to be able to
save me. I was going to have to really grow up myself, really
strengthen myself, really get as much support from the people
around me as I could, and really start drawing some very strong
boundaries that I wasn’t going to let you cross, but also in a
way that was very accepting. I liked having you around and that
it’s okay you be around. We like you and we accept your
presence without you having to do anything to impress us. That
was very vital.
It goes
back to last week’s show where we were talking about recovery.
I was saying how it looks like a balloon with all the air coming
out of it—a balloon deflating—that’s what you looked like when
the game finally came apart and you realized you weren’t going
to be able to continue with the act. But for the next two or
three months after that, you were at home. I mean I laugh about
this. We have a lot of critics and people who write and say we
don’t know what we are talking about or we are lying—anyway, we
get a lot of that. I mean, I saw one on a blog once and it made
me laugh because it was saying you got better when you were
threatened with jail or coming and working on the narcissism
cured team and having this great, flashy job where you were the
expert making all this money.
STEVE:
Yeah, I remember that.
KIM:
Which I really had to laugh because your narcissism had been
cured. No books had been written and I just had a little web
site that was in no way was even covering our expenses. And
when you lost your job at the bar, we were on the equivalent to
welfare. And we had an enormous amount of debt. And I still
just had to be really, really strong and say it doesn’t matter.
We are going to get through this. We are going to work on this
and it’s okay. Because I knew you weren’t ready to go out and
get another job at that stage. You were just too vulnerable.
STEVE:
Well that’s for sure.
KIM: You
were just so quiet. Because when the act came down, you didn’t
know how to behave. You didn’t know. You didn’t know how to
listen or be fair. You were really—you know, I hope this isn’t
embarrassing you, Steve.
STEVE:
Oh, no. Not at all.
KIM: But
I think it’s really important because people are really asking
about this all the time and it’s the thing that they want to get
a glimpse of is what that transition looks like. It was very
much us just accepting your presence and making you feel
welcome, loved and accepted at home and that home was a safe
place. It was somewhere you could be when the game came down.
I was going to save you. I was going to take on a lot of
responsibility. I mean it’s not fair that you were an invalid.
That process was actually where you were learning more skills to
be domesticated and learning to be a better father and learning
to pull your weight around the house and taking on those things
slowly. And through that time, there were people coming in
trying to offer you flash jobs and this and that. That is where
some of the setbacks came in and it actually did become
necessary for me to talk to some of those people and say that
really wasn’t what you needed.
STEVE:
That’s right. I wanted to just touch on too, when you told
that story, Kim, about when you did realize that you had to sort
of knuckle down, make a bit of headway in your own career, and
take the lead a little bit, but that was probably a little bit
scary for you.
KIM: Oh,
completely.
STEVE:
And you probably didn’t grasp that with a lot of joy. You know
there was probably a lot of fear in there.
KIM: Oh,
an enormous amount of fear. I mean, I hadn’t handled any of the
finances in the house before that. I will never forget going to
the bank and there was a wonderful woman there who helped me
sort through everything and followed the money trail to see
where it had been going and what had been going on with that.
And realizing I was going to have to take control of that for a
while. I had no experience in that. It was a real time of me
just having to face cold, hard reality. I had to give up the
idea that you were going to come to the rescue or somebody else
was going to come to the rescue. And I was going to have to get
in and really be the one to save us, I guess.
STEVE: To
save us? You weren’t just doing it to save me?
KIM: No.
STEVE: It
wasn’t just about me, it was the kids.
KIM: Yes
the kids.
STEVE:
And you.
KIM: Our
whole family—yes, our whole family. And it’s really only been,
I would say, last year sometime that it started to feel like
that pressure was off. I mean, now you are completely an equal
partner and you completely pull your weight with everything.
But for a while the reality was that you were just not able to
do that if you were going to start over and fill in your gaps
and do the work you needed to do as far as goals and whatever.
And I really needed to be there to be strong and to support you
through that. And you know, I don’t really care what people
say. If they say, “Oh, well you just chose that because you
were really taking advantage of me”, or whatever, and you are
still narcissistic—oh no, whoa, you are not here and you can’t
see the difference. Anybody who is here and sees the difference
between then and now, they don’t doubt what we are saying.
STEVE:
That’s right. And Kim, if we can get off the subject for just a
minute…
KIM: Yes.
STEVE:
Could we talk about that most of you are listening to this have
read about narcissism and have also come across the term
‘codependent’ as well. In our story, I was the narcissist and
Kim was the codependent. What we’ve got now is
interdependence. And we talked about that in previous shows as
well. Forgive us if you have already heard the shows we talked
about here, but I will just touch on it now briefly.
Interdependence is really positive. Kim and I actually really
depend on each other now. We both really share our work that is
here around the house. We both share business tasks. We both
share our commitment toward parenting the children. We do
depend on each other. And it’s not a negative thing that we
actually depend, but we have come to place where we are able to
say , look, we are realistically going to need to depend on each
other sometimes. But it’s a two-way street. Dependency is not
a necessarily a bad thing if both people can admit that we need
to depend on each other.
KIM: Yes.
STEVE:
And at different times we will need the other person to take the
lead—whatever it is—and that that is positive.
KIM: And
that that’s different from codependent. That always confused
me. I thought; “what is wrong with people depending on each
other?”. “Why is codependence a bad thing?”. Codependence is
really something different from that and it’s when you are
dependent on your partner emotionally for your happiness. And
that is quite different. We won’t go too far down that track
right now, but I think it’s good that you brought up the
interdependence, because that is when you are fully mature. I
mean, independent is something that is a really good thing for a
teenager to aim for. Or when you are in your early 20s, or when
you’re first moving out and living on your own. You are
learning to be independent. But that is not the final step.
The final step in the journey is being someone who is
accountable for themselves, who is trustworthy, and who is
interdependent in that people can count on you and rely on you.
Because we all work together and that is really necessary and
important.
STEVE:
And you can also allow people to take the lead sometimes as
well. You don’t have to do everything yourself. I mean, I was
very guilty of that. I was always wanting to do everything. I
was always like, “No, I’ll do that and I’ll do this. I don’t
need anybody.”
KIM: Oh,
you just wrote us off. We were just useless and hopeless and
you had to do it all yourself. And you were out trying to solve
all of our problems yourself and it was just a disaster.
STEVE:
Yeah, and really embarrassing. (laughing).
KIM:
(laughing).
STEVE:
Look, lets jump into the reader’s questions before you can
embarrass me again.
KIM:
(laughing) I’m sorry, Steve.
STEVE:
That’s cool. We’re getting there. Okay, so here we’ve got an
email from someone with no name.
Hi Kim
and Steve. Thank you so much for your site, excellent radio
show, and positive attitude. I am getting a lot out of the
information and you are support you are providing, and I admire
you both for working on yourselves and speaking together to make
your relationship work. I also believe, like you both, this is
the way to go. What is your position on what is called by the
domestic violence people “the cycle of abuse”. I am wondering
how you see that model.
KIM:
Okay, well I think since we only have two questions this week,
why don’t we do them both together. Go on and read the next
question, Steve?
STEVE:
Okay, the next question is:
Your
programs are quite useful. I have a great question for you. My
husband, I found, is a narcissist from some legal papers. The
shrink had to state was the preexisting condition was. He had a
car accident and a head injury. He wrote “narcissist and ADD”.
Wow! At the time, I did not know a lot about ADD, and did not
know that narcissism was a personality disorder. Anyhow, the
form of text here is he says, “I am being creative so you have
to stop nagging. Being creative is the most important thing and
will make us lots of money in the end.”
Ha!
(she says) It costs us money. He has been writing notes for
stories, so to speak, for the last 25 years that go nowhere. He
paints but sells nothing and does not work at marketing. He’s
had a four-hour radio show for the last four years that he did
for free because he was on worker’s compensation. He cared for a
little old lady, expecting her to give him money, and she
doesn’t want to. Every dream, scheme, lawsuit, and ‘they have
done me wrong’ thing is the only way he knows how to make
money. And at 60 years old, he is physically disabled but
writes his daydreams on paper about three hours per day
and Kim, she doesn’t know what to do about it.
KIM: Mmmm.
Okay, well. We will answer the first one first, because I think
these two do tie in together. I mean, with the subject of our
show today about the cycle of abuse. I do believe in the cycle
of abuse. I think that anybody who has been in an abusive
relationship is aware of it. There is the fighting and it
escalates and escalates until things really explode. Finally
one partner is sorry and then they make up. When they make up,
there is kind of a honeymoon period where things are nice again
until things start to escalate and deteriorate again. This
keeps repeating. It’s a cycle. I found that that happened with
us completely, but it deteriorated over the years until there
wasn’t really even a honeymoon period (laughing).
STEVE:
Yeah, it sort of went out the window.
KIM: And
we sort of just did the fighting and things would get bad and we
would just get on with things basically. All of our work, what
this is about and what we are talking about in this show. Every
single thing we are talking about is about disrupting that
cycle. That is why it’s really, really important to not just
keep doing the same things over and over again. That you do
have to have the courage to do things that are a little bit
scary and are a little bit different. As we said, Steve, you
know it was very scary me taking the steps that I did.
The second
question comes more into what we are talking about here of
taking the pressure off. I will answer that in a general
discussion with you, Steve, about this idea that I think you
really can’t be democratic with someone who is narcissistic. I
don’t mean to sound alarming or to sound like some kind of a
control freak. I really had to come to realize, Steve, that
developmentally or emotionally you had this big gap when you
were acting up and a lot of you was still sort of 8 or 10. You
were not in any kind of position to be making democratic
decisions with me about our future, about our plans, and we were
doing. And the whole time that I expected you were going to be
able to do that, things just got worse and worse.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM:
Because it’s very hard to be democratic with someone who is 9.
STEVE:
That’s for sure.
KIM: And
somebody who is just acting, where everything just becomes
chaotic and deteriorates into chaos. So this is about the
recovery when you realize your partner isn’t going to come and
rescue you and maybe you need to do the rescuing. The second
person who has written in, I think you really have to approach
this, even though your partner is 60, as you say. You have got
to understand that at some level he is arrested in his
development at a very much younger age than that. And to expect
him to be able to know how to just jump in and market himself or
to make a living and bring in money when he hasn’t been able to
do that his whole life is probably too much pressure.
STEVE:
Sure, that’s right.
KIM: And
it’s probably making his problems worse. There is nothing wrong
with you expecting that. But I just don’t think he is probably
able to do that. If he knew how to, he would.
STEVE: I
think that’s a really good topic that you brought up out of that
question. He obviously doesn’t have a clue.
KIM: No.
STEVE: If
he did, I’m sure—look anyone who knows how to make money that is
good at what they are doing must have had some sort of personal
crisis about doing that. Again, you continue to do that to make
an income for themselves. So that’s really, really important.
He obviously has no idea what to do.
And can I
just touch briefly on the brain injury he’s had. I think if you
do your own research on acquired brain injuries—look we are not
medical people, but do your own research on an acquired brain
injury because there is a lot of great stuff I have read and
heard people researching in the sense of what happens with
people with their decision making, especially. Because we are
not medical people, I can’t talk about it more than that, but I
do encourage you to do some research on it. I will just
touch on it briefly, that when people do have a brain injury
that they aren’t going to make good decisions for a while and
you don’t know how long that’s going to go for. It may look
like this person’s got ADD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder,
they might appear psychopathic. You have no idea. But if there
is a brain injury like this person in this question is talking
about, do your own research. Honestly, look at it, because you
may just find some things there that can help and you can
nurture on a level and not be confronting about that.
KIM: And
if you do want a good relationship with this man, you may just
have to accept the reality that you will have to compensate a
bit. And that is not saying you should let him spend your money
or that you should let him exploit you. I think it’s extremely
important that you put very, very watertight boundaries in place
for that in terms of money—what’s your money and what’s his
money—realistically and kindly. And you may need to come up
with a plan of your own about what is going to happen with the
things he is doing and the time he is giving to these projects
that he is not getting anything for. He is obviously
unsustainable. You may need to work to bring that game down.
STEVE: Or
teach him marketing. Obviously he needs to learn how to market
himself.
KIM:
Yeah. If he’s doing a radio show for four hours every day and
he is writing all this stuff, maybe there is some value in his
creativity—because creativity is very valuable. I write books
and do all sorts of stuff that earns us our income now. But
marketing is really important and marketing is not easy. A lot
of people think they are good at marketing and a lot of people
think they understand marketing, but it’s really not the case,
in my experience. Very few people are actually very good at
that. You may really need some help. You may need to come up
with a plan that is a bit more realistic and break down into
some very doable goals. Like, “I can’t keep helping you out
with money, but there is this that you could do for a few hours
a week to earn some extra pocket money. It’s not going to make
you rich, but it will pay for you to do whatever.” Then you can
keep working on this other healing and I might start helping
out. You know, think of some ways on how you can work together
and how you can support him a little bit to take the pressure
off so you are not expecting him to compete with other men his
age who have been making a really big salary their whole entire
life. He is probably just mortified that he hasn’t actually
done that. He talks about how creativity is more important,
because he has to have something to save his pride. Because
false pride is everything with someone who is narcissistic,
isn’t it, Steve.
STEVE:
Especially with narcissistic men, indeed.
KIM: I
think and the women.
STEVE:
And the women. For sure. But men do like to compete with each
other.
Look, I
just wanted to mention too, Kim, that leads into one of the very
strong things we have in our work and that is giving a
challenge. This guy needs that challenge set for him. I’d like
to just talk to that one, Kim. Okay, the challenge is now for
you to work and put three or four hours of your week into
marketing, learning marketing, or into some paid work.
KIM: I
think that marketing is probably too big a challenge. Even if
there is something you can find that gives him that success.
Nothing breeds success like success. Something where he doesn’t
have to become rich from it. He doesn’t even have to be fully
supporting himself, but something where he can get a whim and
start bringing in a little bit of money.
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM: But
be still supporting his other creative stuff. I just think he
needs a bit of help with this. He needs the pressure taken off
with this.
STEVE:
And he needs some help finding that balance.
KIM: Well
it’s hard. You know, I am a creator and so I really feel that.
And you were extremely critical of me for doing the things that
I was doing. You saw them as dead ends and that they would
never go anywhere and were just costing us money.
STEVE:
Yes, that’s right.
KIM: And
now it’s providing an income for us and you’ve actually seen
it. You know, creativity can pay. But it’s a long journey.
And he really may need some help and some support with this.
And also like you say, Steve, just giving him that little
challenge and just saying you know, I don’t expect much but
there is a little job here, it will be over in no time, and just
bring in you own bit of money that would really impress me. I’d
just be glad to see that. But you don’t have to take the whole
block on this, you know bringing in the money.
STEVE:
Yeah. Good idea.
KIM: I
think that would be important. Now we were a bit late starting
today. I am so sorry we had trouble getting through on the
phone time. How much time have we got? Can I give an example.
STEVE: We
have about 10 minutes.
KIM:
Okay, we’ll give an example, shall we?
STEVE:
Sure.
KIM: Okay
with this example of saying you need to come in and support your
partner. So, how about we get back to Eliot Spitzer? We used
him as an example last time and he’s a great example. I like
him.
STEVE:
Perfect. Everyone knows about him.
KIM: And
he’s a pretty classic case of narcissism I’d say.
STEVE:
That’s for sure.
KIM: I
can’t diagnose him, but from what we saw in the media. Do you
want to fill in a bit in case someone out there hasn’t heard of
him?
STEVE:
Okay, well Eliot Spitzer was the mayor of New York—or the
governor of New York—I can’t quite remember.
KIM:
Yeah, we’re not in the States.
STEVE:
We’re Australians. We don’t really know what we speak of. He
is either the Mayor of New York City or the Governor of New York
State, one of the two. He had a very good career as a lawyer,
he came from a good family, etc. He led a couple of crusades
against organized crime, which included a few prostitution rings
in New York. He led the charge in terms of trying to pull them
down, but apparently at the same time he was caught red-handed
using these prostitution services. He then stood down. Because
he was a lawyer I don’t think he admitted to it. I think he
went to trial. Anyway, he had to resign his very, very
prestigious position with a lot of controversy. And his wife…
KIM:
Disgraced.
STEVE:
Absolutely disgraced 100%. His wife stood by him as he resigned
and took him home.
KIM: And
got a lot of criticism for that.
STEVE:
She got a lot of criticism. I think a lot of people thought she
might throw a glass of water in his face or something—like
“you’re finished, Pal!”. Which probably would have made for
great theater and great entertainment, but it’s not a realistic
thing for a person to do. He is her husband and she has been
with him for a long time and they have children, I believe. So
it was quite a sad story. We don’t know what happened since.
But it was a very public incident from a couple of years ago.
We use this as an example of someone who is narcissistic because
he put on a front of somebody who is perfectly...what’s the
word?—
KIM: His
morals. His public morals and values that he presented publicly
were in vast contrast to what was happening in his secret,
private life going on in the background. This is very typical
of someone who is narcissist or someone who has this disorder.
Okay, to
use an example of Eliot again, let’s just say (and this is
completely hypothetical) that Eliot Spitzer’s wife discovered—if
she read Back from the Looking Glass—she might know what
she needed to. This is a big part too, that you really need to
get yourself out of the dark. So she realized he is being
abusive at home. She is probably having other problems with
him, so she decides to do her own research and she finds out
what is happening before everybody else finds out about it.
Okay…let’s just say that—this is hypothetical. She also sees
quite rightly because she is a sensible woman that this is
unsustainable. It’s not just how it’s hurting her, but on a
general level it’s going to bring him down or he is in really
big danger.
STEVE:
Yeah, public disgrace is just around the corner.
KIM:
Yeah, if he’s discovered. And there is a likelihood of that
happening. So from where I sit, what I would be recommending if
we could go back in time before this all happened, back to that
stage (to give a picture of what we are talking about here)
would be to come in and say I can put my family and Eliot
himself in a better position if I inform someone at his work of
what is happening. Somebody who is hopefully close to him and
actually cares about Eliot enough that he is not going to have
Eliot publicly disgraced, but he is somebody who will take
charge of the situation and has some authority to get this
sorted out. And that may even mean him losing his job. This is
where the parental role comes in because he has to decide if
this is sustainable. If this is what he is doing and if it was
public knowledge what was going on in his private life, he
would be dismissed from his job and he would be
fired. Would these people have any business being in that job
in the first place. Is he really cut out for this. Is
he really able to do this or is he under some unrealistic
pressure. I think you have to be really realistic about this. I
can only say what I could do. From my position I would say no,
this isn’t sustainable.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: If
he is outwardly running campaigns against organized crime, but
in the background he is involved in organized crime?
Sorry, now we have enormous problems here. This is not
going to be fixed by a little bit of icing on some cake
somewhere. So she might even help organize for his dismissal,
but in a way where hopefully he is not dragged through the whole
public humiliation that he would have been dragged through if
that would have happened in a public way. But at the same time
she could set up and say what are some other options here? What
really does he need to be working on? What does he really need
to be doing that would help him to be more happy? Because this
is the thing. Steve, when you were out working at the bar, you
were running around town, and you weren’t at home and you were
neglecting us—you weren’t happy.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: Were
you?
STEVE:
Not at all.
KIM: And
sometimes I think it’s someone’s partner who has the sense to
think what the person themselves may not see. The idea I had
was to say you just needed to be at home for a while, spend time
with your kids a bit, and spend some time just filling in some
of the gaps that you had. You were so relieved in the end that
you had the opportunity to do that. That was the really
surprising thing about it. I mean, of course you didn’t like
having your game pulled down. Eliot Spitzer is the example. He
is probably going to be absolutely angry, upset and completely
not happy about it if he loses his job and his wife has
something to do with it the awful stuff going on in the
background. If she is also saying, “Hey, I’m really on your
side. This could have been a lot worse if this was discovered.
And this really isn’t sustainable, hon. What are you doing? I
am really unhappy about what has been going on and the battle
with this, but here is another option. How about you do this
and you move into working on this for a while, and I will
support you in this, and this, and this way.
STEVE:
That’s right.
KIM: And
things are going to be okay.
STEVE:
She has been able to use a lot of the heart virtues: she has
used compassion, she has used understanding, she has used
forgiveness, and she has used a bit of valor.
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE:
Overall, probably not an easy decision for her, but from a moral
point of view it was an easy decision because she says okay, I
have this information now. I know that this guy is not who he
says he is. She can take on that position and she can say okay
how can I use some compassion and understanding as well as let
him know I am not going to stand by and be an accessory before,
during, and after the fact.
KIM:
Yes. And I think it’s important here. The thing is she is not
attacking him in what we are suggesting. It’s not like she
would be bringing him down or lying about him. She is just
allowing the truth to come out. She is just saying, okay I’m
not going to protect you here. I think she has a right to
protect herself and the public as well. I am not going to
protect you with the act but you can cut the act or the act
comes down, then I will protect you.
STEVE:
That’s good. Look, I just wanted to use this idea of where some
narcissistic people are at—where I was at and I think Eliot may
have been at as well. Do you remember when you climbed a tree?
You had gone up a tree and you are enjoying it and you stretch
to get to the next level and you get up. And you look down and
you find out you can’t actually get down the way you came up.
KIM: Mmm
hmm.
STEVE:
That’s sort of the mechanics of how we are built with arms and
legs and being able to stretch and use our eyes—-you know that
feeling?
KIM:
Yeah.
STEVE: I
think that’s where a lot of narcissists are at. They say I’m
going to go up here, I’m going to go up here, and they haven’t
really thought about how they are going to come back down. And
they are out on a limb, so to speak.
KIM: I
think that’s a great illustration.
STEVE: So
he’s out on a limb and you need to rescue him. I mean, you have
never seen Prince Charming sitting out on the end of a branch
needing someone to rescue him. Perhaps in a Monty Python film
or something.
KIM:
(laughing) That sounds like a good cartoon. It must be time for
us to go.
STEVE:
Yes, we have to cut out. Thanks everyone and thanks everyone at
Global Talk Radio for making this happen for us. We would love
to hear from you.
KIM: And
our web site is
www.narcissismcured.com.
That is where you can subscribe to our email list and find out
more about what we’re about.
STEVE:
Take care everyone. We will see you next week.
KIM: Bye!
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